並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep08-%E5%B0%8D%E7%9A%84%E4%BA%BA-%E4%B9%9F%E4%BE%9D%E7%84%B6%E6%9C%83%E8%AE%93%E4%BD%A0%E5%A7%94%E5%B1%88/id1612420686?i=1000557412318